As a young lady, I try to be very conscientious of the fact that while I may not be altogether unwelcome in the manosphere, it is certainly not FOR me. Men are talking, and they don’t need fangirls, or sycophants, or shaming.
Still, I do sometimes chime in. Usually by the time I’m able to add something, though, it’s deep in the conversation, and liable to get lost. This would be fine if I yapped a lot (as I am wont in real life) but since I try to only offer new or different points, I’m usually pretty proud of my rare posts, and would like them to be preserved somewhere. So, I will probably archive many of them here, if only for my own vanity’s sake.
That said, this one is in response to a comment on SunShineMary’s post Theory of Feminine Devolution, and I have quoted the commenter to whom I was specifically addressing:
The interesting thing is that men don’t show this degenerate behavior. Even if you remove all social control from a group of men, they will form their own hierarchy, code of conduct and morality with a clear sense of right and wrong. Men are fundamentally builders, creators and fixers.
I think the key we should all focus on here is that men don’t show this degenerate behavior (i.e. bonobo-like). This comment is clearly framed to paint men as wholly superior (the foundation of society – builders, creators, etc) and women as completely useless to society. However, men DO show degenerate behavior, but, to continue the analogy, theirs is the brutal, war-like nature ascribed to chimpanzees.
This is Mansterationalized by those who responded to another commentor’s point re:prison society as still having “rules, hierarchies” etc, but while this is the case, is this seriously a good faith argument that men in such situations are not “degenerate”? They are simply degenerate differently, that doesn’t make them “civilized”.
Men are builders, creators, and fixers BECAUSE it is a way to impress women when you are not the brute force alpha. Society, civilization, gadgets all exist because men want to impress women to get access to sex. This is why alphas don’t bother with these things (they don’t need to do more than grin right to get laid) and why many men are dropping out of creation/building etc – there are no guarantees on return anymore. But just as most women will degenerate as explained above with out the incentive/discipline of an alpha-enough man, so will men often degenerate into cave/basement dwellers content to eat, fap and sleep without the appeal/incentive of an attractive enough woman.
Please note that I don’t mean to say no man will bother himself unless poozy is on offer, but over time, over generations, the average man will decline just as (but not in the same way as) the average female. We can already see this in the rising PUA and MGTOW movements, and the rise of men, not formally affiliated with either, who are just dropping out in general. This is exacerbated by the rising penetration of video gaming, and the increasingly immersive game designs. (This is not meant to shame gamers, as my husband and I both are; merely pointing out that video games, by design, make it easier to avoid, ignore, or replace a boring/uncomfortable reality with a much more appealing one).
Again, I don’t mean to shame anyone with this post except the guy who suggested that men aren’t capable of being degenerate. I consider the PUAs, MGTOW and unofficial drop outs to be acting rationally (whether or not morally) in light of the legal circumstances.This does not excuse ANYONE’S behavior (male or female). It only goes to show that men and women BOTH degenerate when society gets out of whack, but that they degenerate differently.
I do hold that men are able to do many things much better than women can, and I agree that women need men more than men need women. I even agree that women mostly need men if they are to be disciplined, where as men can mostly be disciplined with or without women (sometimes much better without – e.g. military). BUT the notion that only women will naturally degenerate, that men are too good, too pure, too dedicated to building to likewise degenerate, is patent nonsense. It may be slower, it may be different, but it is degeneration.
I’d also like to state that it is not my original assertion that men create to attract women. I believe I read it on Rational Male or Chateau Heartiste, but so far I haven’t been able to dredge up the original article. I believe I remember enough to back the assertion up, but I did not want to take credit for an idea more intelligent and studied people than I put forth.
Thus ends the last of the comment. In closing, I will just add that I have been lurking the ‘sphere for over two years. I think the men here are right about a lot of things, and I support a great deal of what is said here. I have been making efforts to be a more submissive wife myself because of the ‘sphere, and have a happier home and life because of it. I have even become Christian after discovering Dalrock, SSM and others. I recognize that the men hereabouts have been shamed quite enough and are rightfully, righteously angry. However, there is a certain point where anger clouds judgement. I do not often call it out; it’s certainly not my place to do so, and I know just as easily as I can throw around the word “bitter” it will be responded back to me “shaming language”. But after the Mark Minter saga, I think there’s something to be said for occasionally having a reality check.
Yes, things are bad, really bad. But we must not become so clouded by emotions, even very much appropriate emotions, that we cease to see the forest for the trees. I called out this poster because he seemed (by the wording of his post and subsequent responses to others) to believe that men are not prone to excesses and degeneracy in the way women are. But just because it is not the same way doesn’t mean it’s not there. We don’t need to address this much here; it’s already everywhere else. It is good and right that the manosphere is more focused on educating men on the faults of women, which are so glossed over everywhere else. But just because we focus here on things which are not talked of elsewhere doesn’t mean we should forget that we’re all human and prone to faults. We should not be knocking women off pedestals just to put men on them.